[858-862]
From the Georgia Commissioners to T. P. Andrews.
Fort Mitchell, June 25, 1825.
Sir:
We were not a little surprised to hear from yourself this evening that you were unacquainted wilh the objects for which we were taking testimony. We were then of the opinion (and, upon examination, have become
confirmed in that opinion) that the papers which have been submitted are sufficiently explicit. By a reference to the letter of the Governor of Georgia to you, of the 20th instant, you will find he says, " The commissioners authorized by the Legislature to lake further testimony will for that purpose proceed forthwith to the nation, and under orders to make all possible despatch." By a reference to the printed documents delivered to you at the agency on Flint river, you will see a copy of the resolution referred to. To these we can add nothing which will convey in stronger terms the objects of taking the testimony, unless, perhaps, it may be necessary to remind you of the charges
preferred by the Governor of Georgia.
While you seem to be ignorant of the object of our appointment, we presume that does not extend to the
appointment itself. To avoid, however, any possible mistake, we would beg leave to refer to the conversation which took place between you and Colonel Jones, at the agency, in which you inquired if any mutual arrangement had been made between Colonel Crowell and the commissioners; whether we would
reexamine the witnesses sworn before the committee, to enable Colonel Crowell to cross-examine them; and whether we would assist him to compel
witnesses to testify who might refuse. We would also remind you of the inquiry you again made this evening, whether we and Colonel Crowell had made any arrangement, &c.
We regret we have been compelled to be thus minute, and feel more regret to remark that our object can be recognised when it is necessary to make inquiries for the benefit of Colonel Crowell, lest injustice may be
done him; and when inquiries are made of you, to facilitate the business, and quiet conscientious scruples, you should decline to give any answer, and thereby (we hope unintentionally) throw difficulties in our way, already sufficiently obstructed. We would beg leave further to remark, that while the testimony which has been taken against Colonel Crowell has been made public, and he has had every opportunity of seeing and disproving it, (if in his power,) and while our instructions are positive to permit him to be present and cross-examine the witnesses, and complaint has been made by you of the appalling influence and power of the executive and legislative branches of the Government of Georgia, you have not thought proper to apprize either the Governor or ourselves of the testimony which " has been already shown you by the agent," in his own favor, or that to which you referred
today, which had been shown to you in favor of Hambly, the interpreter. As we could not doubt the ascertainment of truth to be the object of your mission, we could not be insensible to this difference; and we hope u second reading of the papers we have reference to will satisfy you fully of the objects of our appointment.
And have the honor to be, with consideration and respect,
Warren
Jourdan,
Seaborn Jones,
Wm. H. Torrance,
Commissioners.
Major T. P. Andrews, Special Agent.
[NOTE. — This letter was received on the evening of the 26th of June and answered on the 27th, although it is stated by the commissioners that it remained unanswered until two of the commissioners had gone to Alabama.] .
T. P. Andrews to the Georgia Commissioners.
Princeton, near Broken Arrow, June 27, 1825.
Gentlemen:
I have received your letter dated the 25th last evening, and was not a little surprised at the misapprehension, on your part, which appears to have rendered such a letter necessary.
You remark that you were surprised to hear me remark on the 25th, in reply to an observation of Colonel Jones, that
I was unacquainted with the object for which you were taking testimony. I must deny, in the most positive manner, having made any remark which would fairly justify such a construction. In your conversation with the Reverend Mr. Compere, which took place accidentally in rny presence, he remarked that he had
conscientious scruples agianst taking an oath, " unless in cases of absolute necessity." He then added, that if I would say that I viewed his giving you his oath as such a case of necessity, he would give it. My reply was, that it was a matter entirely between yourselves, which I did not wish to interfere in, and that I must decline giving an opinion as to the absolute necessity of an affidavit, as it was a matter I did not wish to interfere in, being incapable of
forming a judgment on it, as " I was unacquainted with the objects or uses to which the testimony collected by yourselves was to be applied." You expressed some surprise at the remark, and I took occasion to add, that I did not know whether your testimony was to be laid before the Executive or the Legislature of Georgia, the General
Government, or its agent, or to be used before a court of justice. I did not make my being unacquainted with those
objects or uses a matter of complaint, because (as the authorities of Georgia had not thought proper to make me acquainted with their particular intentions as to the use to be made of the testimony collected by yourselves) I did not consider it a matter on which 1 had a right to ask information. As it has now become a subject of question, and, in a measure, of discussion, I beg leave to ask you, distinctly, to what objects or uses the testimony you collect will be applied: whether it is to be submitted to the agents of the General Government, or to the United States Government direct? or whether it is only intended to produce a conviction of guilt in the Indian agent before the Legislature, the Executive, the people, or the courts of justice of Georgia? I am more particularly induced to ask these questions to convince you that, although I have re-examined all the letters and sources of information you refer me to, as well as your letter now before me, I am still totally unacquainted with the objects or uses to which the testimony to be collected by you is to be applied. At the same time, I disclaim all right, on my part, to
receive answers, unless perfectly agreeable; and state, distinctly, that, since my interview with Colonel Jones on the Flint river, I could not entertain a doubt that one object of your appointment was to criminate, if possible, the Indian agent.
You must certainly excuse me for declining, what you appear to wish me to attempt — to " quiet the
conscientious scruples" of the Reverend Mr. Compere, or any other person, on any subject. I told that reverend gentleman, immediately on your leaving us, (as he can testify,) that I would greatly prefer his giving you an affidavit, if consistent, on reflection, with his religious principles; but that, in saying so, I did not wish to be considered as stating my belief as to its absolute necessity, not having been made acquainted with that necessity, and having also previously informed him, as well as the other clergymen in the nation, that (respecting, as I did, their characters and their religious scruples) I should view a conscientious statement from them, without their making oath to it, as
all-sufficient, so far as their testimony was to be applied to the objects of my mission.
I recollect the inquiries you refer to, as made of Colonel Jones, on the Flint river; and take this opportunity of remarking, that I have as yet received no answers to them, particularly as to the intention of the
commissioners to summon the witnesses already examined by the committee, to afford an opportunity of cross-examination.
I do not see the light in which the commissioners wish the first part of the third paragraph of their letter
received. If no insinuation was intended by it, it appears to me that their expressions were uncalled for and
unnecessary; if, on the other hand, it is intended to convey an insinuation of a disposition on my part to act in an unfair or partial manner, I feel called on to say that such an insinuation is not warranted by my acts or intentions, or by truth; and that a repetition must put a stop to all official correspondence between us, as I am determined to avoid all official correspondence (which I am at liberty to avoid) that is not conducted in a proper spirit of courtesy and justice.
In reply to the latter part of the same paragraph, I would remark that I am not in official possession of the evidence you refer to, relating to the agent, having returned it to him for the present. I am, however, informed by the agent that in due time you will have an opportunity of cross-examining his witnesses, and, consequently, of seeing that testimony.
The course pursued by General Gaines, in relation to the United States' interpreter, is one which is conceived to be entirely between himself and his Government; and as it regards the statement which 1 have made to him (in reply to his demand for it) of my present impressions in relation to the interpreter, it is between the general and myself and our Government. It will readily occur to you that you will receive a great amount of information (if you have not already) not immediately connected with the particular object of investigation, but proper to be submitted to your Goverument. Whether such is the fact in relation to yourselves or not, I take this occasion to inform you that I should be wanting in respect to the Government which I have the honor on a peculiar point to represent, if I should offer to others the first knowledge of a great deal of information which may incidentally come before me. Such is the case in reference to the United States' interpreter, who is not under trial. The President has so far thought proper to disregard the impressions of others, which have been laid before him, and to continue the interpreter in office. The commissioners of the late treaty, notwithstanding their impressions against him, continued to avail themselves of his services whilst in want of an interpreter. His capacity renders his services necessary to facilitate business. It was only in regard to the propriety of his being employed or not as an interpreter on the present occasion, that I have given an opinion to the general; and I understood your body, in the presence of General Gaines, on Saturday evening, to approve of his employment, with the precautions which the general has taken on the occasion.
With consideration and respect, I remain, gentlemen, your most obedient servant,
T. P.
Andrews, Special Agent.
To Cols. Warren Jourdan, Seaborn Jones, and W. H. Torrance, Commissioners.
From the Georgia Commissioners to General Gaines.
Crabtree's, July 1, 1825.
Dear General:
We shall attend today, at the hour of two o'clock, P. M., to take the testimony of the Little Prince,
Hopoithle Yoholo, Sandy Graison, John Riley, and Benjamin Hawkins, of which you will please inform Colonel Crowell. It is not our intention to have this examination in the square, because it. will be very lengthy, and there will be no convenience for our clerk to take down the answers. We shall object to Colonel Hambly as an
interpreter; we shall select Hawkins: we wish Colonel Crowell to select another. You will please invite the above witnesses to your quarters, where, by your permission, the examination will take place.
Very respectfully, yours, &c.
Warren Jourdan,
W. W.
Williamson,
Commissioners.
To Major General E. P. Gaines, Commanding, Princeton.
T. P. Andrews, Special Agent, to the Georgia Commissioners.
Princeton, Indian Nation, July 1, 1825.
Gentlemen:
Your letter of this date to General Gaines has been referred to me, as well as the subject to which it relates. Colonel Williamson was present in the square yesterday, when the chiefs positively refused to have a conversation with you, or suffer any examinations except in public, in the open square or council, and made no objections, or was not understood as making any. I have therefore the honor to remind you of that determination, and to inform you that you shall have for your clerk all the facilities which have been enjoyed by the general and myself in our own written intercourse with them, which has been considerable. We will be happy to see you at the square at the hour you have fixed on. Both the general and myself will take pleasure in affording you all desirable and possible facilities; but
all questions put to the Indians must be in writing, that they may be placed on record by all persons present so disposed, and that they may not be subject to be misapprehended. This is a course which the officers of the General Government have felt themselves bound to pursue, and one which, it is thought, is due in fairness to the Indians.
Very respectfully, your most obedient servant,
T. P. Andrews,
Special Agent.
To Cols. Warren Jourdan and Wm. W. Williamson, Crabtree's.
Georgia Commissioners to T. P. Andrews, Special Agent.
Princeton, Indian Nation, July 1, 1825.
Sir:
Your communication of this morning, in reply to ours of the same dale, has been received. We cannot see the analogy between the cases cited. Your and the general's correspondence with the Indians, we presume, from your note, has been conducted in writing; you have had time and leisure in your room to make your
communications. The Indians, on the other hand, have had reasonable time allowed them to respond. Your objects have been national; ours relate to the elucidation of a few facts, and to correct erroneous opinions in relation to a few incidents connected with the late disturbances. We respectfully, and in great deference to the opinions of you and the general, ask, as a right due to Georgia, to examine a few chiefs in General Gaines's room, or in Major
Rockwell's, the counsel for Colonel Crowell.
We ask it from the following considerations: First, that the examination and cross-examination would, in all probability, consume a day. Secondly, that we always intended, and have always so expressed ourselves, that it should be under the immediate observation and control of General Gaines and yourself, and under the observation of Colonel Crowell and his counsel. Under such an arrangement, we cannot withhold the expression of our opinion, that, if any advantage existed, it would certainly be on the side of the agent. Thirdly, it does not seem reasonable to us, in the compliance of an unreasonable request by the Indians, that they will hold no converse or communication with the Georgia commissioners, unless in the open square, that we should be subjected to all the inconveniences of the most inclement season, when no possible injury could result to themselves or the agent in pursuing the course we propose. Fourthly, from the facility of communication with themselves, by signs, as well as in a language we do not understand, we are firmly of the opinion that no possible good could result in the examination we propose, if their proposition be adopted. No possible injury could result to any person from the adoption of the course we propose, under the restrictions and safeguards we accede to. Fifthly, if we have not been misinformed, the agent has had all the benefits and indulgences extended to him that we ask for or claim.
We would respectfully suggest to General Gaines to recall to his recollection the distinct and positive
understanding on this subject in his room, between the Georgia commissioners and himself.
The interrogatories we propose exhibiting are reduced to writing, and we had no wish to submit them in any other form. It belongs to you gentlemen, exclusively, to say whether the like indulgence will be afforded us.
With high consideration and respect, yours, &c. &c.
Warren
Jourdan,
Wm. W. Williamson,
Commissioners.
Major T. P. andrews.
T. P. Andrews to Georgia Commissioners.
Princeton, Indian Nation, July 1, 1825.
Gentlemen:
Your communication, in reply to my note of this morning, was handed to me whilst General Gaines and myself were engaged in council with the Indians, at Broken Arrow. I immediately handed it to the general, who stated your request to the chiefs in council, and urged them to accede to it.
I am requested by General Gaines to say that he has no objection to the chiefs meeting you at any place, but that the objection is made by the chiefs themselves, and that he is not disposed to insist on their doing so against their own determination. My objection relates solely to any questions being put to them that are not in writing, and, by that means, placed on record, and out of danger of being misapprehended. My objection was elicited in consequence of having understood from General Gaines that Colonel Jones, of your board, had refused to put them in writing.
You will permit me to remark, that on the score of time neither General Gaines nor myself can but think that you have had at least as much, in which to make your examinations, as any other person or persons whatever. Indeed, from the number of your board, it is thought that you enjoy, in that respect, very great advantages. The only questions put to the Indians, in relation to the Indian agent, were propounded to them, and answered in the course of an hour or so, without leaving the council, and not as supposed in your communication.
As it regards the exposure of the commissioners of Georgia to the inclemency of the weather, I cannot but
remind you that it is an exposure which the general and myself would have taken pleasure to share with you, although we have already been exposed to that weather for some time, without intermission.
I take this opportunity of assuring you that you have been misinformed in supposing that the agent has had the benefits and indulgences which you ask for.
The general directs me to say that he does not consider himself as having had any understanding which militates in the smallest degree with his present determination of not compelling the Indians by force (if he had a force near him, which you know is not the case) to attend the examinations in the particular manner you request of him. He has not only requested, but urged them, so far as ho could do so with propriety, to acccede to your request; which they have replied to with great fixedness, as you will perceive from their reply, which he requests me to say will be handed to you so soon as it can be made out and copied.
With high consideration and respect, yours, &c. &,c.
T. P.
Andrews, Special Agent.
To Cols. W. Jourdan and W. W. Williamson, Commissioners, &c.
Princeton, Indian Nation:
Personally appeared John Winslett before me, Thomas Triplett, acting agent for Indian affairs, who, being duly sworn, says: That on Saturday last, the 2d instant, at a house occupied by a negro of Chilly Mcintosh, who had whiskey for sale, William W. Williamson, one of the commissioners from Georgia, in a conversation with this deponent and others, consisting of Benjamin Hawkins, Josiah Gray, (Indians, who understood English,) Lemuel B. Nichols, Isaac Burns, Nelson Kent, and others, among other things asserted that he had been threatened since he had been here, but not by the red people; and after some other remarks, he observed that the President of the United States had acted like a damned insignificant rascal, for taking notice of reports which had the effect of stopping the survey.
John Winslett.
Sworn to before me, this 4th day of July, 1825.
Thomas Triplett,
Acting Agent of Indian Affairs.
Witness: T. P. andrews, Special Agent.
Lemuel B. Nichols, being duly sworn, says: That the above facts and conversation are, to the best of his recollection and belief, just and true; and such conversation did take place, as above stated.
Lemuel B. Nichols.
Sworn to before me, this 4th day of July, 1825.
Thomas Triplett,
Acting Agent of Indian Affairs.
Witness: T. P. andrews, Special Agent.
John H. Campbell, being duly sworn, says: That he was present at the place and time within mentioned; recollects to have heard a part of the conversation mentioned in said affidavit, to this import: that the President of the United States was an impertinent rascal; was not present all the time. This remark was made by Williamson.
J. H. Campbell.
Sworn to before me, this 4th day of July, 1825.
Thomas Triplett,
Acting Agent of Indian Affairs.
Witness: T. P. andrews, Special Agent.
* Colonel Jones stated positively to General Gaines that the commissioners would not agree to reduce them to writing, or suffer copies to be taken. T. P. A.
The Governor of Georgia to the Governor of Alabama.
Executive Department, Milledgeville, June 14, 1825.
Sir:
The enclosed resolution of the late Legislature will inform you that the Executive of Georgia is charged with the running of I he line dividing this State and Alabama. As it is more than probable that I will take measures to carry their wishes into effect very soon after the United States Government shall have had an
opportunity to quiet the disturbances which prevail in the Indian country, and as it is very desirable that the
Government of Alabama shall harmoniously co-operate with that of Georgia in the execution of the work, I will thank you' to inform me whether you feel yourself authorized to appoint commissioners on your part to meet the
commissioners of Georgia, so that the operation may be a conjoint one, and satisfactory in its results to both parties.
Very respectfully, His Excellency the governor of alabama,
G. M.
Troup.
Governor Pickins, of Alabama, to Governor Troup.
Executive Office, Cahawba, July 3, 1825.
Sir:
I have the honor to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 14th ultimo, and with it the resolution of the Legislature of the State of Georgia authorizing the immediate running and marking the divisional line between that State and the State of Alabama, after notice, however, to the Executive of this State, to afford an opportunity for co-operation in the work by appointing of commissioners on the part of Alabama.
In my former letter you were informed that the Subject had been submitted to the Legislature of this State at the last session, and that no measures had been adopted thereon by that body, whereby I am altogether
unauthorized to appoint commissioners, or otherwise to co-operate in the desired work. It is proper here to observe, that the omission of the Legislature to act hitherto was owing to no indifference to the importance of participating in the operation, nor to any indisposition to co-operate liberally and harmoniously in the execution of the work,
whenever any practical benefit to either State might be promised. Until very recently, the country on both sides of the proposed line was, for its whole extent, embraced within the territory allotted to the Creek and Cherokee Indians; is even yet, and must continue for many months to be, under, the occupancy of the Indians. Up to the period of adjournment of the last Legislature of this State, no disposition was evinced by either of those nations, from which a cession of their territory was anticipated by that body, rendering a designation of the line through it necessary. Now that a treaty of cession has been made and ratified, you may be confidently assured that the Government of this State will act with promptness and cordiality, so soon as the situation of the ceded territory shall be such as to render it advisable. It is, however, obvious to your excellency that, to provide the necessary measures for a legal co-operation by this State, a convention of its Legislature will be indispensable — the regular period for which will happen in November next. It is presumed that this will be in very convenient season to meet the views of the Government of Georgia, even should it be found to be expedient to commence at an earlier period to survey its own portion of the ceded territory; considering also the period reserved by the late treaty for the occupancy of the Creeks.
This subject shall be at the earliest moment presented for the particular attention of the Legislature; and the object, I trust, will be seasonably accomplished with mutual satisfaction to both States, in the only admissible or practicable way, by mutual participation.
I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
Israel Pickins
His Excellency the Governor of Georgia.
Governor Troup to Governor Pickins.
Executive Department, Ga., Milledgeville, August 10, 1825.
Sir:
I have had the honor to receive your letter in answer to mine on the subject of running the dividing line between this State and the State of Alabama; and, in compliance with the wishes expressed by your excellency, will cheerfully postpone the operations until November, confidently relying on the assurance that the Legislature of Alabama will, on its first meeting, take prompt measures to co-operate with Georgia in the execution of the work.
Very respectfully, G. M. Troup.
His Excellency Israel Pickins, Governor of Alabama, Cahawba.
[end of Doc. 249]