[Pages 1529-1540]
Produced, sworn and examined as a witness for and on behalf of interveners Chissie Stepney, et al., testified as follows through the interpreter:
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. GIBS0N:
Q What is your name? A Ernest Gouge.
Q Where do you live? A Hanna.
Q How old are you? A I am sixty-seven years old.
Q Are you a Creek citizen? A Yes.
Q You are enrolled as A Creek citizen, Creek by blood? A Yes.
Q Are you a fullblood? A Yes.
Q What was the name of your father? A David Gouge.
Q What was the name of his father, your grandfather? A Opotha Yahola.
Q Was he the Creek general? A Yes.
Q Have you ever been married? A Yes.
Q What was the name of your wife? A You mean the first or last one.
Q Well both of them. What was your first wife's name? A Liza Jackson.
Q What was the name of your last wife? A Susie Low.
THE COURT: Ask him if he just had two.
A I just had one at a time. She died so I remarried.
Q Is your last wife, Susie Low, living or dead? A Dead.
Q Did she leave any children? A Yes.
Q How many? A Three.
Q Are they living or dead? A One is living.
Q What is that girl's name? A Eliza Gouge.
Q Is she one of the parties in this case? A Yes.
Q Are you the guardian of Eliza? A Yes.
Q Did you know the father of your wife, Susie Low? A Yes.
Q What was his name? A Haryaryeche.
Q What other name did he have? A Jim Lowe.
Q Did he have a busk name? A Peyeluste.
Q What does that mean in English? A Black grass.
Q Was he also known as Nokuseager? A Yes, in the tribal town he was known as Nokuseager.
Q What town did Jim Lowe belong to? A Tuckabatchee.
Q And what town did his wife belong to, the one called Susie? A Kialigee.
Q What clan do you belong to? A Beaver.
Q What clan did your wife belong to? A I don't know.
Q What town did Haryaryeche belong to? A Beaver.
Q Is Haryaryeche living or dead? A Dead.
Q Did you ever know the mother of Haryaryeche? A No.
Q How long did you know your wife Susie before you married her? A I knew her when she was young.
Q Before your marriage state whether Susie ever told you where her grandmother the mother of Haryaryeche was buried.
MR. PATTERSON: I object, hearsay.
THE COURT: As to where she was buried, yes that would be hearsay, but if they told her what the relation was.
MR. GIBSON: Her grandmother.
THE COURT: Why is it material where she is buried?
MR. GIBSON: That is the issue. They buried her at Bristow. We want to show a different place and show the cemetery.
Q Did Susie ever tell you where her grandmother was buried? A Yes.
Q Tell the circumstances, the time at which she told you, tell what was taking place when she told you. A We were going to Eufaula and happened to be going by the cemetery.
Q What is the name by which that cemetery is known? A I don't know about the name, but the cemetery is on the land of Choctaw Givens.
Q Was that on the road between your home and Eufaula? A Yes.
Q Did you ever go to that cemetery? A Before I married Susie I went there several times.
Q You have been back there since that time, have you? A Yes.
Q Are there any tombstones or other things there which you saw when you went into that cemetery? A About three graves have the stone slabs over the graves.
Q Are the names of any people marked on those slabs? A There was a headstone something like Barnett.
Q Did you know from what any member of your wife's family told you what the name of Haryaryeche's mother was?
MR. PATTERSON: Object, leading and suggestive.
Q Did any member of your wife's family ever tell you that the name of Haryaryeche's mother was? A Yes, they told me.
Q What was the name they told you? A Thlesothle.
Q State whether or not that is the woman Susie said was buried on Choctaw Given's land. A No, she merely said
-- I was told that was where the father of my mother was buried. I got it reversed, father's mother.
Q Do you know where Haryaryeche was buried? A No, I didn't see him buried.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. PATTERSON:
Q You say you live at Hanna, Mr. Gouge? A Near Hanna
Q Are you enrolled with Thomas Red? A Yes.
Q What relation was Thomas Red to you? A My uncle. My mother's brother.
Q You were not married when they made the roll were you? A I don't know when I was enrolled. Somebody else enrolled me.
Q You are enrolled as twenty-six years of age in 1901, is that about right? A I am not sure Just how I am enrolled, but during the year 1882
Isparhehcher made war and I was thirteen years old and going to school then.
THE COURT: He claims to be sixty-seven.
MR. PATTERSON: Sixty-eight.
Q You say your first wife was Susie? A When I had been living at the home of Washington Sarty who had
a home.
Q Is that near the present town of Okemah? A It is named Hillaby, near Hanna.
Q You say your first wife was Susie? A Nicey.
Q What was her clan? A Alligator.
Q And what is your clan? A I am Beaver.
Q What was your second wife's name? A Susie.
Q What was her clan? A I am not positive about that.
Q You don't know your wife's clan?
THE COURT: He said he didn't know.
Q You never did see this man Haryaryeche did you? A Yes, I knew him real well.
Q Where did he live? A He died. I guess he is in Heaven.
Q Where did he live when he died? A Tribal town Kialigee.
Q Is that near Hanna? A East of Hanna.
Q Did he die before or after the Isparheacher War? A I am not sure about just when he died.
Q How old were you when he died, about how old, were you a grown man? A I was married when he died.
Q Did you know this woman Thesothle? A You mean the mother of Haryaryeche?
Q Yes, the mother of Haryaryeche? A No.
Q Did Jim Lowe tell you who his mother was, or was it your wife? A No, it is somebody else told me that.
Q Who was it told you? A Tucker Barnett.
Q Was Tucker Barnett related to Thesothle? A I am not sure that they were blood kin but they belonged to same tribal town.
MR. PATTERSON: I move his evidence be stricken, if the court please, not competent.
THE COURT: Why?
MR. PATTERSON: Because he traces kinship told to him by a man he doesn't know whether he is kin or not.
THE COURT: You brought it out.
MR. PATTERSON: He had testified before.
THE COURT: I will let it stay in, but if it is not competent I will not consider it.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. SPILLERS:
Q When did you first meet this lady Thlesothle? A Mother of Haryaryeche?
Q Yes. A I said I didn't know her.
Q When did you first hear about her? A Well I don't know what year it was, but it was after
I had married Susie.
THE COURT: When did you marry Susie? A 1920, I don't know just when. I was told about that by Susie and I got married in 1920.
Q Was it after that? A Yes, after.
Q How many children did Thlesothle have besides Haryaryeche? A Dave Barnett told me one was Haryaryeche, Jackson Barnett, and he mentioned another one but I don't recall the name. There are three of them.
MR. HARROD: We move to strike out the testimony as hearsay.
THE COURT: I will let it in but not consider it.
Q Where is that grave yard where the mother of Haryaryeche was buried? A It is west of Eufaule, between Eufaula and Hanna.
Q When did the mother of Haryaryeche die? A I don't know. Long time ago.
Q After the Green Peach War or before? A Before.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. HARROW:
Q When did Dave Barnett tell you Haryaryeche was the son of Thlesothle? A Well I don't know just what year it was, but Susie and I got married in 1920 and since she died 1925 it was between 1920 and 1925.
Q Who was present when she told you that? A Billy West. Susie was there and we have
a boy and he was there.
Q And where were you? A At the home of Dave.
Q And how come you to talk about it? A Well we had heard that Jackson was related to Susie and he was going to make
a gift to her.
Q And that was after Jackson had got married to the white woman or before? A Well I don't know when he married that white woman so it might have been before or after.
Q How long did you live near Hanna? A I was reared down there.
Q Did you know Joe Colbert during his life time? A You mean the one at Tuskegee?
Q The one who lived about two miles from Billy McCombs A Yes.
Q Do you know Charlie Barnett? A Lives nearby there? Yes.
Q Did you know him when he lived with Joe Colbert? A I didn't know whether he was living there or not, but I used to see him there.
Q Was he an orphan boy? A I don't know about that.
Q Do you know who his father was? A No.
Q Where did Jackson Barnett live at the time Charlie Barnett was living with Joe Colbert? A She one they are talking about here?
Q Yes. A I don't know that.
Q Did you know Jackson Barnett at all? A No.
Q How old a man was Joe Colbert when Charlie Barnett was living there with him? A Joe Colbert is very old man.
Q Is he living now or dead? A He is dead.
Q Do you know Robert Colbert? A You mean the one that is living now?
Q The one that lives at Seminole. A No, I don't.
Q Do you know A preacher by the name of Robert Colbert? A I know one Robert Colbert who lives near Tuskegee.
Q What relation does he bear to Joe Colbert with whom Charlie Barnett lived? A I don't know about that, but this Robert Colbert is
a son of Jim Colbert.
Q Do you know Lawyer Deer? A You mean who belongs to Tuckabatchee Town? I used to know him.
Q Is he living or dead? A He is dead.
Q Do you know Pelo Deer? A Yes.
Q Is he the son of Lawyer Deer? A I don't know, but I was told that he was the son of Lawyer Deer.
Q Do you know who the sister of Lawyer Deer was? A I don't know.
Q Do you know whether Jackson Barnett moved from Billy McComb's over on the Arkansas River in the early days to Leecher's ferry? A Billy McCombs told me about that.
Q Did you know Billy McComb's wife during her lifetime? A No.
Q Did you know Joe Colbert's wife? A I didn't know her.
(Witness excused)